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Aharon Dayan

Why Are We Forbidden To Use LLET?

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Shalom and greetings all my pals,

I was flying C-130 from LLHA Hafia to LLET Eilat when I got call from VATIL center controller asking me to report to him.  After contacting him via his official frequency and reporting to him, he told me I was not allowed to use LLET and I must divert to LLBG because LLET is closed airport.

I replied with the words "Vatsim's regulations allows closed airports as long as pilots have understanding that they would NOT expect ATC services for the closed airports which is why Vatsim allows landings for old Hong Kong airport".

To my surprise, the VATIL center controller replied with the words "Not Vatil.  You cannot go to LLET. You have to divert to LLBG or I can let you land on LLOV"

Since I am world's most polite Vatsim pilot having strictest observations of all Vatsim regulations, I decided not to argue and decided to shut my mouth up accepting diversion to LLOV.

Unless all of you tell me I am mistaken, I thought VATIL must follow Vatsim regulations and I thought Vatsim's regulations allows closed airports as long as pilots have understanding that they would NOT expect ATC services for the closed airports which is why Vatsim allows landings for old Hong Kong airport

Am I correct or mistaken?  I am having hard time understanding that Vatsim or Vatil would not allow flights to LLET.

Regards,

Aharon

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39 minutes ago, Aharon Dayan said:

Shalom and greetings all my pals,

I was flying C-130 from LLHA Hafia to LLET Eilat when I got call from VATIL center controller asking me to report to him.  After contacting him via his official frequency and reporting to him, he told me I was not allowed to use LLET and I must divert to LLBG because LLET is closed airport.

I replied with the words "Vatsim's regulations allows closed airports as long as pilots have understanding that they would NOT expect ATC services for the closed airports which is why Vatsim allows landings for old Hong Kong airport".

To my surprise, the VATIL center controller replied with the words "Not Vatil.  You cannot go to LLET. You have to divert to LLBG or I can let you land on LLOV"

Since I am world's most polite Vatsim pilot having strictest observations of all Vatsim regulations, I decided not to argue and decided to shut my mouth up accepting diversion to LLOV.

Unless all of you tell me I am mistaken, I thought VATIL must follow Vatsim regulations and I thought Vatsim's regulations allows closed airports as long as pilots have understanding that they would NOT expect ATC services for the closed airports which is why Vatsim allows landings for old Hong Kong airport

Am I correct or mistaken?  I am having hard time that Vatsim would not allow flights to LLET.

Regards,

Aharon

 

Hello,

Please send us an email about this case with specific details-flight date and atc name.

vatil1@vatil.org.il

vatil3@vatil.org.il

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2 hours ago, Or Bahtari said:

 

Hello,

Please send us an email about this case with specific details-flight date and atc name.

vatil1@vatil.org.il

vatil3@vatil.org.il

@Or Bahtari,

Thank you for reply.  Here are two links for specific flight details including date and time but do NOT remember the ATC name. However, I do remember it is center controller.

First link: https://vatstats.net/flights/18185794

Second link after the center controller changed the flight plan: https://vatstats.net/flights/18185883

Meanwhile I sent at your request the email with details to your two provided email addresses.

Regards,

Aharon

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לפני 30 דקות Oran Tamir כתב:

Both of the airports are closed in real life so the division decided to close it in the simulator too.

As Aharon mention earlier, VATSIM allows pilots to fly between any two airports in the world, even if they are closed in real life.

 

I suggest we leave this matter of great importance to all of us, for the division staff to handle.

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2 hours ago, Or Bahtari said:

Hello,  As mentioned - there is no prohibition to use these airports in VATSIM. However, the controllers will not provide service for these airports.

Thanks for confirming that I am correct.

The actual Vatsim rules is that the controllers will provide services for any pilot at cruising altitudes to LLET or LLSD and the ATC services stop providing coverage or services when the pilots start to descend on way to either of 2 closed airports.

For example,  I flew on Vatsim to closed airport SEQU Quito many times.  Ecuador ATC provided services during my cruising altitude at 37,000 ft and during descent to 23,000 ft. At 23,000 ft and below,  they told me that I was on my own discreet without any ATC services to descend and approach the closed SEQU airport.

The only exception to the rule is if an active airport and closed airport are next door or very close, then Vatsim controllers will provide services during approaches for only purpose of separation in air space only only if it is VERY CROWDED air space.  For example, closed  LLET and active airport on Aqaba, Jordon are next door or nearby meaning there would be chance for heavy traffic above waters of Red Sea for the active airport and closed airport therefore Vatsim controllers would provide control above waters of Red Sea ONLY for purpose of separation and spacing while telling LLET bounded pilots they would be on their own when they are ready to land.

Regards,

Aharon

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On 24.10.2019 at 17:02, Aharon Dayan said:

Thanks for confirming that I am correct.

The actual Vatsim rules is that the controllers will provide services for any pilot at cruising altitudes to LLET or LLSD and the ATC services stop providing coverage or services when the pilots start to descend on way to either of 2 closed airports.

For example,  I flew on Vatsim to closed airport SEQU Quito many times.  Ecuador ATC provided services during my cruising altitude at 37,000 ft and during descent to 23,000 ft. At 23,000 ft and below,  they told me that I was on my own discreet without any ATC services to descend and approach the closed SEQU airport.

The only exception to the rule is if an active airport and closed airport are next door or very close, then Vatsim controllers will provide services during approaches for only purpose of separation in air space only only if it is VERY CROWDED air space.  For example, closed  LLET and active airport on Aqaba, Jordon are next door or nearby meaning there would be chance for heavy traffic above waters of Red Sea for the active airport and closed airport therefore Vatsim controllers would provide control above waters of Red Sea ONLY for purpose of separation and spacing while telling LLET bounded pilots they would be on their own when they are ready to land.

Regards,

Aharon

hi Aharon  i will be less diplomatic from VATIL 1 or and other so for that i sorry

 I was the ATC that Evening you're right i can't prevent you from landing  at  LLET but i am also want give the best ATC service i can 

  The problem with LLET  that is AD Located under new LLER which create traffic conflict you are in VATSIM which mean we works as real as it is gets in real life LLET is a car parking lot

 i can't tell you disconnect but be aware for this:if you fly for such problematic AD and the J10 is problematic Route  be aware  as aircraft on my Radar you are the Last in food chain which means it enough that there will be only one flight arriving or Departing LLER ( even only FP just filled  and you will HOLD over ZFR VOR or MZD VOR for over 30-45 minutes

if you will not get any ATC service anyway in LLET why initially do this on VATSIM

Remember my interest is to give you full ATC service

 

 

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On 10/26/2019 at 3:00 AM, Elad Zeierman said:

if you will not get any ATC service anyway in LLET why initially do this on VATSIM

Because we want to have enjoyment flying to LLET on Vatsim and cruising at cruising altitude across Israel from north to south requires ATC service anyway

On 10/26/2019 at 3:00 AM, Elad Zeierman said:

I was the ATC that Evening you're right i can't prevent you from landing  at  LLET

Yep  I am correct and that is why I did NOT argue with you when you informed me I was not allowed to fly to LLET because it would be against Vatsim rules to argue with controller so I just shut up my mouth and accepted your orders to divert to LLOV out of polite manners because I believe in super strict observation of Vatsim and Vatil regulations.

That is why I just made this thread to inquire and to ask for clarifications on whether pilots are allowed to fly to LLET or not to see if I am wrong or correct.

On 10/26/2019 at 3:00 AM, Elad Zeierman said:

 but i am also want give the best ATC service i can 
Remember my interest is to give you full ATC service

Yes you did FANTASTIC job providing ATC service for my flight from LLHA to the South and you provided fantastic last minute vectors for last minute diversion to LLOV.  Thanks for kind ATC assistance.

On 10/26/2019 at 3:00 AM, Elad Zeierman said:

be aware  as aircraft on my Radar you are the Last in food chain which means it enough that there will be only one flight arriving or Departing LLER ( even only FP just filled  and you will HOLD over ZFR VOR or MZD VOR for over 30-45 minutes

Maybe this needs to be discussed with management of VATIL on the topic about why would Vatil pilots need to wait 30 to 45 minutes over ZFR or MZD in order to go to non controlled and empty LLET especially LLET bound planes are safe at higher altitude than LLER bound planes???

@Or Bahtari,  Can you please shed light on this interesting topic about why must Vatil pilots wait 30 to 45 minutes over ZFR or MZD in order to go to empty and uncontrolled LLET?

Regards,

Aharon

 

 

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I read through the chain and I understand the issue, also both of you have valid points.
in general the rules as you stated them, however this is only valid if you don't pose a disturbance to active flights heading to active airports.
the following is true:
1. the following Aerodromes are closed for ATC services in VATSIM over the Israel FIR: LLOV, LLET and LLSD.
2. VATSIM member can fly to any airport in the SIM, ATC services would be provided at cruise and initial decent until ATC controller feels you are no longer in potential conflict with other
traffic. than you are on your own at UNICOM. it is to the controller's discretion rather to provide ATC services end to end until landing if he is free and has nothing better to do.
3. ATC controller could deviate you from your original route or place you on a hold and re-route you back to your final aerodrome, in case of active flight that conflicts with your path.
this is in order to clear conflicts. However, ATC shall not force you to land at alternate airport unless there is a good reason, such as disrupting other flights.
4. ATC controller should try an avoid restricting a pilot not flying to it's final destination or delaying them more than needed.

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